After re-reading this thread,

While writing up a new guidelines for crime and punishment may seem productive, what purpose will they serve?

I don't mean to be counter-productive, but hear me out.

Guidelines, while helpful, realistically, they're unlikely going to be followed, as executing the correct punishment is difficult.

Not all rules are broken in the same way, and allocating the correct punishment requires a level of JUDGEMENT from individual staff.

So in theory, anyone promoted into staff ranks would be expected to have a level head and the ability to make unbiased judgments, using common sense.

This is just a given, all circumstances vary accordingly.

So maybe the answer lies within your selection of staff to begin with.

If staff are creating inconsistencies with punishments due to that individuals "lack" of judgement and common sense, then maybe the problem won't be solved with a re-writing of the rules.

The mods are trying their best but from what I hear the real reason tp was banned was continuing to annoy someone when asked to stop. I guess that is fiarish but I think tp should get another chance I don't think he is a bad guy really!

He just pushed it a bit too far.

Lucy that doesn't sound Counter productive..

Actually i would have to agree with that statement a new code of Rules or Updated version.. 2012 Rules if you presume.

As stated in the past he was not banned for cheat client or anything like that in the end. I banned him for cyber bullying other members of the community. I have stated that in this post previously as well. I do not have an issue if you are trying to point fingers at others but please provide accurate information when doing so.

I know i wasn't saying he was banned i was simply stateing the warning he was given, but as Ire (Lil Kim) stated above this is not about that and im giving it up didn't read fully through post on topic with conversation at the beginning.

I'm probably beating a dead horse by this time but, is there any reason other than the non-existant (for reasons I stated earlier) security issue NOT to release the list of crimes and punishments?

Cos then people know how far they can push it so will only do stuff that will get them jail or temp ban

As I said, I disagree. Especially if it is set up as a guideline where "You could get anything from THIS to THIS." In that sort of a situation there isn't as much potential for people to try and push the limit. It's like arguing against people being able to look up the punishment for real life crimes because people will "push it" even though it does refrain the majority of the populous.

As I mentioned,

Although I see your point, I don't think new guidelines is the solution in the long term.

Okay..... so I just took the time to read those 12 pages... I'm glad to see that most of the stuff that was out of context or irrelevant got answered and talked over...so I won't have to make a 10 foot long (but close...) reply to this topic.

First of all, I can agree that there is some inconstancy in the application and relief of bans, but it is not right to claim, as few of you did, that the staff is biased, unfair and illegitimate.

Yes, staff members are left free to apply their own judgment on bans they issue.... but that doesn't mean that they decide whatever they want and are free to apply their own ruling to the server. Staff members are asked to handle the bans they issue to avoid confusion between staff and to help keep track of the issues. In rare cases, where misunderstanding happens or when the majority of staff agree that a situation have been wrongly handled, necessary actions are taken.

Also, I think it is needed that I mention it again, but there is tons of stuff going behind the scenes... our staff is very close together and you will not find many communities with the level of communication Minetown has. It is often incorrect and inaccurate to base a judgment only on someone's ban appeal and/or someone's version of X story... Our server have multiple systems in place that keep track of everything going on the server. Yes, everything. So please, before giving your support to a banned player or to someone that argue against the application of rules, make sure that person is right in the first place, before reconsidering the staff actions...

Concerning the inconstancy in punishments... this is something that I would say is... debatable...

The rules apply to everyone. No exceptions... no matter how much you donated.

But, as I agree everyone should be treated on equal terms, I must also agree that some people need to receive different punishments. Let me explain myself...

I'm not teaching you anything when I say everyone is unique... but... let's just take an example to explain this.

PlayerA is a nice member of the MT community. He is active ingame and on the forums and try to help as much as he can, offering help to everyone and etc... See him as an "overall good person"...

PlayerB is a jerk. He trolls the most he can, is impolite, bully people and encourage a negative experience in general but he always make sure to stay borderline of the rules.

PlayerA and PlayerB get banned for a similar issue. PlayerA makes a well composed and descriptive ban appeal. PlayerB makes a ban appeal to spread his last words about how bad this server is and how he's going to tell everyone he knows to come and ruin it...etc.

I don't think you need to have a bachelor in psychology to see where I'm going here. I know this is rather a "radical or extreme" example, but it is a situation that is completely probable that has already happened.

But in a situation like this... it is where the judgment on the case will differ.

It is also incorrect to make analogy on this subject and to compare it to the real life legal system. Yes, both are similar on a bunch of points, but also very different on others. In real life, crime makers get jailed, we could compare this as being banned. But it is not accurately comparable because Minetown is a closed community. Playing on Minetown is not a right. You are given the privilege to access our server(s) once we review your application or make a monetary contribution to the server. If you start making problems and troubling the peace and well-being of the community, we have no obligations to endure such behavior... and it is what makes the quality of our community.

Few hours ago, guidelines were suggested for recommended ban punishments according to infactions in the staff section to avoid inconstancy. If I underlined "suggested" and "recommended", it is because I want to put emphasis that those are only there to help standardize the punishments issued by staff on similar infraction and NOT as a chart to follow very strictly. What I mean by this, is that we use common sense... and there are always some smart-asses who think they can be annoying as hell and stay borderline so they won't get banned "as it would be unfair"... but it is why in those situation the punishments may differ. Unlike real life, where a lot of times the legal system have to "resign" and fail on some cases because it is impossible to properly and legally declare a person is guilty (and that they are obviously...). Don't get me wrong on this... you won't get banned unfairly because we don't like you.... but let's just say that if you are a trouble maker, you are likely to get it a bit harder than someone else...

EDIT: The content of that guideline chart will be kept private as it would bring issues as people would be able to know how borderline they could get before getting banned and possibly resulting in an increase of those minor issues. Its publication could also bring other issues such as "old banned people" coming back and complaining that their punishments was not the one they should have received.

And another thing I would also like people to understand. I've seen in this thread mentions about usable (because they're not on the filter) "curse/dirty words" that have caused few problems. I don't think it is appropriate to act this way and also promotes a quite childish logic ... (like if we should babysit everyone...) anyway... what I want people to understand is not the variety of dirty words you may or may not use... but that if you are annoying on purpose, you are breaking the rules.... There is no need to make this rule more descriptive, as there are tons of way to piss off someone. ... and it is another "gray zone" where staff is left to their own judgment.

...

I also dislike to get more personal, but ... even if I somehow agreed with most of your previous posts Lucy, this one is too much;

I'm sorry, I might be reading this wrong and I really don't want to make additional useless drama as I'm almost just done to finish this long post.... but those lines sounds to me like "Make me mod, I will fix the server" ... and putting the blame on the lack of judgment and common sense of the individuals that are part of the staff... I won't hide to say it... is "an insult" that I take personally...

Our staff is not randomly chosen, organized and directed... and I don't think I need to make a 10 paragraph explanation about it...

I hope I've helped to shed light on the situation...

...and just on a last note... for all of you right now that feel "all stressed" or that "Minetown is not the same" .. or "feel like taking a break because of all the drama " about this issue... well, this is the reason why server issues and problems are handled in the staff section because when they are outside, it gives the illusion that the "situation is unstable" or that there is a "bad time going" on the server...

See you.

-sawine